Comments on: Seeing the Biblical Text Through New Metaphors http://www.velocityculture.com/uncategorized/seeing-the-biblical-text-through-new-metaphors/ Creativity / Theology / Culture / Spirituality Wed, 18 Jan 2012 05:48:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Seeward http://www.velocityculture.com/uncategorized/seeing-the-biblical-text-through-new-metaphors/comment-page-1/#comment-300 Seeward Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:28:11 +0000 http://www.velocityculture.com/?p=1181#comment-300 By: Seeward http://www.velocityculture.com/uncategorized/seeing-the-biblical-text-through-new-metaphors/comment-page-1/#comment-299 Seeward Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:24:56 +0000 http://www.velocityculture.com/?p=1181#comment-299 Carol, Respectfully, Toni wasn't saying that the suns was the center of the universe jut that it was assumes the new paradigm when the old "earth-centered" paradigm exploded or was rationally deconstructed through experience and the tools of mathematics. I think you might have this idea of Vertical Development and the way it is meant to be held incorrect. You make a classic statement, first made by Freud, that in our meditations we might not be moving up into exalted states and it all may be figments of our imaginations. That is true all meditative experience may be interpreted as adolescent regression or you could go the opposite Jungian route and say all childish fantasy should be interpreted as archetypal and profound to our existence. I think what you are missing is "the map is not the territory", no one is presenting vertical development as a proven map of reality, it is just a map, to use your example from science (it could be the mirror of what we experience as reality) these ideas, maps, developmental models etc need to be held lightly. I think the problem you seem to be expressing when you say "let's not exchange one incorrect paradigm for another" implies that someone is holding onto new ideas and models or maps of reality tightly. That's not what I am hearing in Ron's posts or Toni's comments, or the Tribe's interaction. What I feel is that in the midst of what most honest people within the church would admit, we are NOT transforming people to be more like Jesus, some people are willing to "try on" conceptual frameworks and practices (ancient and progressive) that could create a better map of reality than the one we have been using so far. But we all must hold these new maps loosely. They can be helpful and will be for a time but they will never prove to BE the reality that they are describing. You comment above about our experience of only 5% of what exists proves what I am saying. We must go forward with humility and never assume the new paradigm that we are a part of creating, that is sorely needed if the church is going to survive, and that involves experimenting with the implications of new ideas and practices, will be the new paradigm for eternity. History teaches us that paradigms always shift in epochs of time, so ours will one day become unhelpful for transformation just as the churches current one has. I have to say that as passionately as I will engage these conversations, I am still unconvinced, and I am a pastor, that the church will survive into the future in any form we can recognize (except maybe a mystical AA group). I am not alone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQsauf0s4uQ&sns=em Carol,
Respectfully, Toni wasn’t saying that the suns was the center of the universe jut that it was assumes the new paradigm when the old “earth-centered” paradigm exploded or was rationally deconstructed through experience and the tools of mathematics.
I think you might have this idea of Vertical Development and the way it is meant to be held incorrect. You make a classic statement, first made by Freud, that in our meditations we might not be moving up into exalted states and it all may be figments of our imaginations. That is true all meditative experience may be interpreted as adolescent regression or you could go the opposite Jungian route and say all childish fantasy should be interpreted as archetypal and profound to our existence.
I think what you are missing is “the map is not the territory”, no one is presenting vertical development as a proven map of reality, it is just a map, to use your example from science (it could be the mirror of what we experience as reality) these ideas, maps, developmental models etc need to be held lightly. I think the problem you seem to be expressing when you say “let’s not exchange one incorrect paradigm for another” implies that someone is holding onto new ideas and models or maps of reality tightly. That’s not what I am hearing in Ron’s posts or Toni’s comments, or the Tribe’s interaction. What I feel is that in the midst of what most honest people within the church would admit, we are NOT transforming people to be more like Jesus, some people are willing to “try on” conceptual frameworks and practices (ancient and progressive) that could create a better map of reality than the one we have been using so far. But we all must hold these new maps loosely. They can be helpful and will be for a time but they will never prove to BE the reality that they are describing. You comment above about our experience of only 5% of what exists proves what I am saying. We must go forward with humility and never assume the new paradigm that we are a part of creating, that is sorely needed if the church is going to survive, and that involves experimenting with the implications of new ideas and practices, will be the new paradigm for eternity. History teaches us that paradigms always shift in epochs of time, so ours will one day become unhelpful for transformation just as the churches current one has. I have to say that as passionately as I will engage these conversations, I am still unconvinced, and I am a pastor, that the church will survive into the future in any form we can recognize (except maybe a mystical AA group).

I am not alone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQsauf0s4uQ&sns=em

]]> By: Carel Snyman http://www.velocityculture.com/uncategorized/seeing-the-biblical-text-through-new-metaphors/comment-page-1/#comment-294 Carel Snyman Sun, 11 Jul 2010 04:10:35 +0000 http://www.velocityculture.com/?p=1181#comment-294 Guys, let's not paint ourselves into a corner by exchanging one incorrect paradigm for another incorrect paradigm. Sure, we have learnt that the earth is not the center of the universe, but neither is the sun! The sun is the centre of our Solar System. Our solar system is part of a billion other solar systems that make up our Galaxy - the Milky Way - and we are not even near the centre of that! Our galaxy, in turn, is part of billions of other galaxies that indeed do make up our Universe. The universe as we observe it, however, is expanding in all directions. Einstein talks of learning to “accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something.” What lies beyond the outer limits of our known universe? Is it possible that there may be billions of other Universes? Then there are scientists that seriously believe that there are “Parallel Universes”, and that there is a mirror, but opposite, image of everything that exists. Let us be honest and admit that we don’t have the mental capacity to really visualize and grasp these concepts, and even less to even begin to grasp the essence of our Creator God who has created and cares for all this! Also, please don’t fall for the story that advances in science have made religion redundant. To further illustrate how little we know, scientist now believe that our known universe is made up of roughly 60% Dark Energy, 35% Dark Matter, and only 5% Observable Matter. They do not know what this Dark Matter is as we cannot observe it. It permeates the universe and everything in it, ourselves included, but is evidently not subject to the same laws of nature as Observable Matter. They only know Dark Matter exists because of the enormous forces of gravity it exerts on Observable Matter. Think on it. We are overwhelmed by the vastness of what we observe, but i is only about 5% of what really exists! I think it is imperative to ponder these things to bring into perspective how insignificant we really are in the larger scheme of things. Before we are tempted to elevate ourselves in our meditations to some imagined exalted levels that in the end may be just figments of our imaginations. There is no question that our spirituality needs to be enhanced. I have already experienced the benefits of learning to attain inner stillness, and am looking forward to learning and experiencing more. I am fully convinced that a paradigm shift in our time is imperative. It is important that ways be explored to enhance our influence on developments and ideas in this direction. Let us, however, help each other keep our facts straight. May our journey be blessed and endowed with wisdom from Him who made us! Guys, let’s not paint ourselves into a corner by exchanging one incorrect paradigm for another incorrect paradigm. Sure, we have learnt that the earth is not the center of the universe, but neither is the sun! The sun is the centre of our Solar System. Our solar system is part of a billion other solar systems that make up our Galaxy – the Milky Way – and we are not even near the centre of that! Our galaxy, in turn, is part of billions of other galaxies that indeed do make up our Universe. The universe as we observe it, however, is expanding in all directions.
Einstein talks of learning to “accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something.”
What lies beyond the outer limits of our known universe? Is it possible that there may be billions of other Universes? Then there are scientists that seriously believe that there are “Parallel Universes”, and that there is a mirror, but opposite, image of everything that exists. Let us be honest and admit that we don’t have the mental capacity to really visualize and grasp these concepts, and even less to even begin to grasp the essence of our Creator God who has created and cares for all this!
Also, please don’t fall for the story that advances in science have made religion redundant. To further illustrate how little we know, scientist now believe that our known universe is made up of roughly 60% Dark Energy, 35% Dark Matter, and only 5% Observable Matter. They do not know what this Dark Matter is as we cannot observe it. It permeates the universe and everything in it, ourselves included, but is evidently not subject to the same laws of nature as Observable Matter. They only know Dark Matter exists because of the enormous forces of gravity it exerts on Observable Matter. Think on it. We are overwhelmed by the vastness of what we observe, but i is only about 5% of what really exists!
I think it is imperative to ponder these things to bring into perspective how insignificant we really are in the larger scheme of things. Before we are tempted to elevate ourselves in our meditations to some imagined exalted levels that in the end may be just figments of our imaginations. There is no question that our spirituality needs to be enhanced. I have already experienced the benefits of learning to attain inner stillness, and am looking forward to learning and experiencing more.
I am fully convinced that a paradigm shift in our time is imperative. It is important that ways be explored to enhance our influence on developments and ideas in this direction. Let us, however, help each other keep our facts straight.
May our journey be blessed and endowed with wisdom from Him who made us!

]]> By: Seeward http://www.velocityculture.com/uncategorized/seeing-the-biblical-text-through-new-metaphors/comment-page-1/#comment-293 Seeward Sat, 10 Jul 2010 11:47:35 +0000 http://www.velocityculture.com/?p=1181#comment-293 So sorry to post three comments but there is no way to edit old comments.... One, I am still learning the auto-correct on this new bit of tech so sorry if I my arising sounds a bit disjointed and clunky... Second, given what we are discussing, there is a great book that you might have read call "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" that really shows that even in science, new paradigms are slow to emerge and become mainstream. So let's accept that we are doing early practical work for future paradigms and mostly we are best to focus on the questions that Ron called "practical" because the academic question a are rarely convincing to the people in the pews, or stacking chairs, or coffee house sofas..... (all examples of shifting deck chairs... To return to the Titanic metaphor which I think presses the urgency of the situation)... Third, there are some wonderful writers and thinkers who seem to be pushing into. New paradigm, writing in our time, I am thinking of Albert Nolan's newest book "Jesus Today : A Spirituality of Freedom" it is fantastic as well and one that should be considered as a book of the month discussion in the Tribe, if only because he is. South African (Dries are you listening?) So sorry to post three comments but there is no way to edit old comments…. One, I am still learning the auto-correct on this new bit of tech so sorry if I my arising sounds a bit disjointed and clunky… Second, given what we are discussing, there is a great book that you might have read call “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions” that really shows that even in science, new paradigms are slow to emerge and become mainstream. So let’s accept that we are doing early practical work for future paradigms and mostly we are best to focus on the questions that Ron called “practical” because the academic question a are rarely convincing to the people in the pews, or stacking chairs, or coffee house sofas….. (all examples of shifting deck chairs… To return to the Titanic metaphor which I think presses the urgency of the situation)… Third, there are some wonderful writers and thinkers who seem to be pushing into. New paradigm, writing in our time, I am thinking of Albert Nolan’s newest book “Jesus Today : A Spirituality of Freedom” it is fantastic as well and one that should be considered as a book of the month discussion in the Tribe, if only because he is. South African (Dries are you listening?)

]]> By: Seeward http://www.velocityculture.com/uncategorized/seeing-the-biblical-text-through-new-metaphors/comment-page-1/#comment-292 Seeward Sat, 10 Jul 2010 11:36:01 +0000 http://www.velocityculture.com/?p=1181#comment-292 The Amen above was for both Ron's post and Toni's comment, which were both very resonant within me.... Toni, what is your name on the Tribe, ws looking for you to make you friend but say no Toni? If you have not aligned up yet, when you do,look me up under SEEWARD? I am tracking with your ideas and you passion for moving forward...... Loved the comment about how we wouldn't put up with a 'broken' or 'unusable' model of anywhere else in reality but then again, I guess a lot of the problem lies in the fact that, we have put Spirituality in the "If you touch this God will burn off your finger!" category. I am with both of you, let's learn from the past, show respect for our tradition, but honor it by helping to push it into the future rather than being the musicians playing on the deck of the sinking Titanic. (although, Ron, I choose the Jazz score metaphor for handling the text in a new way, I am thinking the score is more Thelonious Monk than Krieg). Life is improvisational in our post-everything world so why don't we have a "living and breathing" text that helps guide our improv? (sorry I honestly just realized I was using your new book's metaphor... It's still early in the morning here in the Bahamas...) The Amen above was for both Ron’s post and Toni’s comment, which were both very resonant within me….

Toni, what is your name on the Tribe, ws looking for you to make you friend but say no Toni? If you have not aligned up yet, when you do,look me up under SEEWARD? I am tracking with your ideas and you passion for moving forward…… Loved the comment about how we wouldn’t put up with a ‘broken’ or ‘unusable’ model of anywhere else in reality but then again, I guess a lot of the problem lies in the fact that, we have put Spirituality in the “If you touch this God will burn off your finger!” category. I am with both of you, let’s learn from the past, show respect for our tradition, but honor it by helping to push it into the future rather than being the musicians playing on the deck of the sinking Titanic. (although, Ron, I choose the Jazz score metaphor for handling the text in a new way, I am thinking the score is more Thelonious Monk than Krieg).

Life is improvisational in our post-everything world so why don’t we have a “living and breathing” text that helps guide our improv? (sorry I honestly just realized I was using your new book’s metaphor… It’s still early in the morning here in the Bahamas…)

]]> By: Seeward http://www.velocityculture.com/uncategorized/seeing-the-biblical-text-through-new-metaphors/comment-page-1/#comment-291 Seeward Sat, 10 Jul 2010 11:17:16 +0000 http://www.velocityculture.com/?p=1181#comment-291 AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!! AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!!

]]> By: Toni http://www.velocityculture.com/uncategorized/seeing-the-biblical-text-through-new-metaphors/comment-page-1/#comment-290 Toni Thu, 08 Jul 2010 17:54:18 +0000 http://www.velocityculture.com/?p=1181#comment-290 I find it interesting how we cling so tightly to these metaphors when they are not answering the questions we pose. Instead of finding a new explanation or heaven forbid questioning our old paradigms, we just ask different questions and mute the voice within ourselves that longs for more, for depth and richness and nuance and maybe even not having everything figured out. We wouldn't settle for simply changing our questions to fit into our current model of viewing anything else in reality, so why do we with spirituality? There was a time when we felt that the Earth was the center of the universe, we have learned through studying and changing perspectives that the Sun is indeed the center of what we know as "the Universe." Imagine what life would be life if we hadn't ever questioned our assumptions. If people hadn't been willing to be labeled as heretics for what we now know as the truth we would be living in a world where the Earth was the center of the universe, in a state of denial of the obvious truth right in front of us. We have evolved in science but not in spirituality. In that area we are underdeveloped and not simply stagnant, but dying and ooh so unattractive and not experiencing shalom. I’m super excited about ttTribe :-). It’s gonna be good! I find it interesting how we cling so tightly to these metaphors when they are not answering the questions we pose. Instead of finding a new explanation or heaven forbid questioning our old paradigms, we just ask different questions and mute the voice within ourselves that longs for more, for depth and richness and nuance and maybe even not having everything figured out. We wouldn’t settle for simply changing our questions to fit into our current model of viewing anything else in reality, so why do we with spirituality? There was a time when we felt that the Earth was the center of the universe, we have learned through studying and changing perspectives that the Sun is indeed the center of what we know as “the Universe.” Imagine what life would be life if we hadn’t ever questioned our assumptions. If people hadn’t been willing to be labeled as heretics for what we now know as the truth we would be living in a world where the Earth was the center of the universe, in a state of denial of the obvious truth right in front of us. We have evolved in science but not in spirituality. In that area we are underdeveloped and not simply stagnant, but dying and ooh so unattractive and not experiencing shalom. I’m super excited about ttTribe :-) . It’s gonna be good!

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